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  • #46
    A good part of the problem for Vogt is that the other guys keep turning their man loose going to the basket and he is prone to foul to protect the basket. He's at least making the effort. I totally agree with Lobot that this defense is not just bad by Bearcat standards it's bad by any standard.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Lobot View Post
      To paraphrase : It's the defense, stupid!

      I mean honestly, regardless of the other things discussed in this thread, I can't remember the last time I saw a Bearcat team play defense this poorly. They don't talk on defense it seems like and don't switch properly. I saw that happen a number of times yesterday where players didn't communicate on screens well and ended up leaving someone wide open for a shot or drive because they both took the same guy. Am I the only one seeing that?

      I'm not even coming from a historical perspective on this. This is not trademark Bearcat defense for sure, but It's barely defense at all. Last night was something different though because if we touched anyone it was a foul. However, this has been a problem all year even in games we've won. I'm willing to accept the young guys excuse to a point and I wonder if the lack of a clear lineup and substitution pattern is part of the issue. You've got issues with people who are slow of foot or people who are playing a different level of defense than others. Some of this is ok, You need guys like Keith and Dou teaching some toughness out there but Keith has got to know if he's going to be all hands 20-30 ft from the hoop, he's going to pick up fouls. Part is this issue might be that his defense is an outlier on the team and sticks out like a sore thumbs to the refs.

      Playing 94 feet of defense is a goal but right now we need to fix half court D. I watched several Bearcats just "ole' " their man last night.

      The main principle of defense is communicating. Leadership is about communication. Right now, we have neither. As a side note, defensively we tend to jump at ball fakes wayyyyyy too much, which puts not one, but two guys out of position.

      Cory Huffman
      Cin City

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      • #48
        You can communicate all you want, but as Lobot made a very valid point in that this defense is just bad by any standard. That starts with staying in front of guys and not getting beat badly off the dribble. I read somewhere that they thought MAW was sick yesterday. I hope for his and the team's sake that is correct because he was beaten so badly off the dribble yesterday on numerous occasions it was almost as if he had no ability to move his feet. Mentally he was just not there yesterday. Perfect feed to him on offense under the bucket and he rolled it over the rim to miss it. It doesn't matter if they play small or big, you can't let guys go right by you to the hoop that easily. At least Vogt gives effort to try and block the shot, but he's going to get fouls if he has to take on guards in the open court. It's like watching a pickup game in the summer league. Most all of the new guys are playing very bad defense, and committing ridiculous mental errors on offense. I think twice in the first half yesterday Eason traveled 40 ft from the basket without a defender within 15 ft of him. He scored the first 6 pts of the game i believe and then didn't score again until the final buzzer. KW has always had an issue with mentally not keeping his composure when something doesn't go his way. The issue is this year when he comes back in after sitting, he tries to do everything. In past years, we had veteran guys who were not going to give him that opportunity. If they're going to ever start playing to win consistently it starts first with their mental approach to the game. Some guys right now are just not 100% mentally into what they are doing. JD got a nice offensive rebound yesterday and he's 6'7. Instead of going up strong and trying to dunk it or use the board he shoots a crazy fall away attempt which not for the first time this year fell short. They have to return to some fundamental stuff and focus a lot more than what we are seeing. Kids in grade school do not travel twice in half 40 ft from the bucket with no one guarding them. Just a lack of focus.

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        • #49
          Along these lines. Check the Brannen qoutes in the post game interview.

          https://www.cincinnati.com/story/spo...te/6595365002/


          Brent Wyrick
          92 Final Four Front Row
          @LobotC2DFW

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Black and Red Attack View Post
            Chris Vogt has been getting a lot of focus here, in my opinion Keith Williams lack of ability to be a senior leader and quote unquote the man has been a major detriment to the ability for a young team to be successful. tonight he made bad decisions on drives his passes led to numerous turnovers and bad fouls and miss free throws again from him is inexcusable. I've always liked them as a player and what he's contributed but we really needed him this year and so far he's not produced
            We've seen a lot of players over the years really develop into stars as seniors, Trevon Scott from just last year comes to mind. I was hoping for a big senior year from KW as well, but it hasn't happened. He's still the same guy, drives to the basket out of control, with a defense that knows he's not passing the ball. He still commits silly fouls that you wouldn't even tolerate from a freshman at this point of most seasons. He tries to be too flashy instead of playing solid and making the best choice consistently. He has stretches where he really plays well, but his downside often outweighs anything he gives you on the positive end. His numbers are up, but that's more due to Trevon and Jarron being gone than any growth on Keith's part. It really hurts to say this, because I hate to criticize players, but that's where we are. This team desperately needed a big year from him, and perhaps he's trying to do more than he can, I don't know. I still hope he takes that senior leap before the season is over, and the sooner the better.
            ESPN Sucks

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            • #51
              Here's the thing about defense...

              Announcers talk about "Cincinnati is known for their tough defensive style....". Actually, no they are not. That style is attributed to the coach.. Mick.. and before him Huggins.
              Sadly, this team's defensive woes may be more associated with coaching than the players. Let me supply some stats to back that up:

              In Mick's last four years here, these are the Points Against Defensive Rankings in the country for UC: 12th, 8th, 2nd, and 14th.
              Conversely, here are Brannen's last four years at NKU: 246, 166, 32, and 106.

              O
              bviously Brannen won games at NKU but by out "offense-ing" the opposition. That's not happening here. Winning games is outscoring your opponent. Brannen does
              not have a history of attacking that equation by limiting their points scored.

              So.. not saying I dont like Brannen but... this teams poor defense seems more on the coach than the players.







              Comment


              • #52
                I’d agree with most of this. I’ve had the feeling multiple times this season that Keith is trying too hard.

                There was a point in the WSU game where he made a spectacular spin move on his defender near the post to get a wide open look in the lane and missed the shot. That happens too often with him IMO. He can be great at times but I think he’s frustrated and pressing.
                Brent Wyrick
                92 Final Four Front Row
                @LobotC2DFW

                Comment


                • #53
                  Yes the UC reputation for tough defense was definitely attributable to the philosophy of Huggins and Cronin. All you have to do is watch UCLA under Mick now. His team plays with the same toughness, sticky defense and strong rebounding but is hard to watch on offense. It's a lot of one on one like it was here. Of course he is winning a lot of games in the PAC12 because his team buys in to that style. That style will win you a lot of regular season games as it has for him and Huggins over the years. I do think it limits you in the tournament. though when all teams start to play hard and your team still can't run offense. That said we still need to improve vastly just to be average on defense here at UC under Brannen and win our share of games.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by coach View Post
                    You can communicate all you want, but as Lobot made a very valid point in that this defense is just bad by any standard. That starts with staying in front of guys and not getting beat badly off the dribble. I read somewhere that they thought MAW was sick yesterday. I hope for his and the team's sake that is correct because he was beaten so badly off the dribble yesterday on numerous occasions it was almost as if he had no ability to move his feet. Mentally he was just not there yesterday. Perfect feed to him on offense under the bucket and he rolled it over the rim to miss it. It doesn't matter if they play small or big, you can't let guys go right by you to the hoop that easily. At least Vogt gives effort to try and block the shot, but he's going to get fouls if he has to take on guards in the open court. It's like watching a pickup game in the summer league. Most all of the new guys are playing very bad defense, and committing ridiculous mental errors on offense. I think twice in the first half yesterday Eason traveled 40 ft from the basket without a defender within 15 ft of him. He scored the first 6 pts of the game i believe and then didn't score again until the final buzzer. KW has always had an issue with mentally not keeping his composure when something doesn't go his way. The issue is this year when he comes back in after sitting, he tries to do everything. In past years, we had veteran guys who were not going to give him that opportunity. If they're going to ever start playing to win consistently it starts first with their mental approach to the game. Some guys right now are just not 100% mentally into what they are doing. JD got a nice offensive rebound yesterday and he's 6'7. Instead of going up strong and trying to dunk it or use the board he shoots a crazy fall away attempt which not for the first time this year fell short. They have to return to some fundamental stuff and focus a lot more than what we are seeing. Kids in grade school do not travel twice in half 40 ft from the bucket with no one guarding them. Just a lack of focus.
                    According to the paper with 14 minutes/12 seconds left UC led 40-39. We finished with 76 so we scored 36 over that last 14+/ equates to about 124 for a total game, that's a lot even in the NBA. However, we gave up 43, equating to about 150 over a whole game, which is either terrific offense or G-d awful defense. I know you can't take small snippets of a game and equalize them over the full 40 minutes but this wasn't a 2-5 minute stretch, it was 70% of an entire half, a half in which, I believe, we gave up 52 points. That isn't UC defense, that isn't anyone's defense, that's just dreadful. With all the turnovers, with some very poor shot selection (& some poor shooting by some) we scored 76 points, which should have been enough to win with any sort of reasonable defense

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by BorisTheCat View Post
                      Here's the thing about defense...

                      Announcers talk about "Cincinnati is known for their tough defensive style....". Actually, no they are not. That style is attributed to the coach.. Mick.. and before him Huggins.
                      Sadly, this team's defensive woes may be more associated with coaching than the players. Let me supply some stats to back that up:

                      In Mick's last four years here, these are the Points Against Defensive Rankings in the country for UC: 12th, 8th, 2nd, and 14th.
                      Conversely, here are Brannen's last four years at NKU: 246, 166, 32, and 106.

                      O
                      bviously Brannen won games at NKU but by out "offense-ing" the opposition. That's not happening here. Winning games is outscoring your opponent. Brannen does
                      not have a history of attacking that equation by limiting their points scored.

                      So.. not saying I dont like Brannen but... this teams poor defense seems more on the coach than the players.






                      Valid points but I always said half of Micks defensive numbers were driven by his taking the air out of the ball, playing slow half court low scoring games, and limiting possessions. His guys did play hard on defense or they would sit but defensive numbers will be skewed if you win 60-55 vs. 80-75

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by richard k. View Post

                        According to the paper with 14 minutes/12 seconds left UC led 40-39. We finished with 76 so we scored 36 over that last 14+/ equates to about 124 for a total game, that's a lot even in the NBA. However, we gave up 43, equating to about 150 over a whole game, which is either terrific offense or G-d awful defense. I know you can't take small snippets of a game and equalize them over the full 40 minutes but this wasn't a 2-5 minute stretch, it was 70% of an entire half, a half in which, I believe, we gave up 52 points. That isn't UC defense, that isn't anyone's defense, that's just dreadful. With all the turnovers, with some very poor shot selection (& some poor shooting by some) we scored 76 points, which should have been enough to win with any sort of reasonable defense
                        I'm not sure i would agree with your last sentence. The 82 points they scored included 28 off of turnovers. I'm not sure they are going to become a great defensive team overnight, but you can eliminate a heck of a lot of these turnovers, and resulting lost possessions with just simple focus. Not to mention a lot of dumb mistakes are resulting in defensive issues on the backside and resulting buckets. This team is just not good enough or experienced enough to be giving the ball up at that clip. No room for error at all, particularly some of these really dumb turnovers. We hurt ourselves as much at the offensive end as we do at the defensive end. In fact, i'd argue that offensive issues lead to many of our really bad decisions and easy buckets on the other end, including sending way to many guys to the ft line. KW is the number 1 offender in this drama.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          I made the comment on another post about Saunders equating to the roadrunner. Hes very adept at ball handling with the quickness that goes with it and so you have a very good passer ( in the future) but for the present with JB wanting to play 94 ft both ways the team just looks hurried. Alot of times his and others passes are fumbled away. Im not blaming all turnovers on Saunders Im just saying this entire team is not ready to play at this pace with any consistency and then when they ( all) do find themselves in the game they are all trying to prove themselves, trying to impress, trying to do too much, playing to not get taken out of the game etc. Then when they do get a chance to breath a little it seems mental laxity or lack of focus takes over and again more turnovers ala TE 40 ft. from the basket. Team defense is definitely a problem but turnovers are mostly unforced.

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                          • #58
                            [QUOTE=Rufus;n377194 Im just saying this entire team is not ready to play at this pace [/QUOTE]

                            I agree with this...the team does not look comfortable, confident or relaxed, they look rushed and totally disconnected. At times it looks like they're all operating on different programs.
                            I don't really remember a Bearcat team looking this bad.


                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Brannen is to into the man to man and we dont have the athletes to compete even in the aac with the size and physicality the teams bring in this conference. I have seen one game this year vs lipscomb where we looked physically bigger and stronger than the opposing team. Wichita looked bigger and stronger as do basically every team we have played. Guarding guys that deep and far past the 3 pt line is causing cincy to get beat off dribble and then they are completely lost on rotations. I completely agree that us coughing up the ball so much is leading to wide open break always and lay ups. Brannen likes finesse guys because it worked at the lower level. To be relevant in the aac u have to have physicality and size. Cronin basically blue printed what teams have to look like in the american. Keith William's is not the guy u want making decisions 30 ft from basket, he is a freak athletically but doesn't understand how to break down defenders to get other guys open, because no one on this team can really shoot we have to start driving and cutting every other possession. I say as soon as vogt enters the game give him the ball down low, I have seen many times home be in good post up position for them to just throw ball around perimeter to get a fade away 3. Keith also faces on his shots basically every time. I have said it before, brannen is use to getting his team to be best during conference tournament, but here at cincy we expect to be in tournament 3every year, so he has to put more emphasis on being ready to win earlier or else we will have to win conference tournament to even catch a sniff of the NCAA tournament

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