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  • #16
    Originally posted by Binturong05 View Post
    It seems only fitting a defensive specialist would come to UC since defense first has been the Bearcat way for 30 years.

    I might add this is why I like college basketball but can't stand the NBA - the NBA doesn't play defense until the last 3 or 4 minutes in the event of a close game. UC basketball has salvaged the sport for me. I still remember as a kid back int he early '90s getting up off the couch and damn near pressing my face against the TV when Huggs would call for the full court press and then I'd be jumping up and down pumping my fist when UC got a turnover because of a 10 second violation on their opponent. I long for those days again.
    I assure you there is plenty of defense in the NBA. The offense at the professional level is so superior it may seem like teams don't play defense but I assure you they do and a LOT of it.

    Every scrub in the league can hit a wide open shot 70% of the time. If they weren't playing defense like you have suggested games would be in the 300+ pts range (think all-star game).

    There are many reasons to dislike the NBA product but I particularly don't care for the close minded college basketball only fans that think the two games are that black and white to compare.
    "The secret is to have eight great players and four others who will cheer like crazy."

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Binturong05 View Post
      I think this sums up my previous post:

      http://www.sportsgrid.com/nba/steve-...ut-of-the-way/



      I'm guessing there is some confusion going on here. You do realize I was talking about the culture of Bearcats basketball emphasizing defense for the last 30 years, correct? I made no mention of the opponents defensive capabilities.
      So let me get this straight. Steve Blake refusing to get run over is your example of no defense? Should he have caused contact and a blocking foul? Even then that scrub center would have probably shot 75% from the line. Steve blake has to contribute 82 games (in a normal season) and can't afford to get ran over by a 250lbs man.
      "The secret is to have eight great players and four others who will cheer like crazy."

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Helicopter View Post
        I assure you there is plenty of defense in the NBA. The offense at the professional level is so superior it may seem like teams don't play defense but I assure you they do and a LOT of it.

        Every scrub in the league can hit a wide open shot 70% of the time. If they weren't playing defense like you have suggested games would be in the 300+ pts range (think all-star game).

        There are many reasons to dislike the NBA product but I particularly don't care for the close minded college basketball only fans that think the two games are that black and white to compare.
        Originally posted by Helicopter View Post
        So let me get this straight. Steve Blake refusing to get run over is your example of no defense? Should he have caused contact and a blocking foul? Even then that scrub center would have probably shot 75% from the line. Steve blake has to contribute 82 games (in a normal season) and can't afford to get ran over by a 250lbs man.
        I don't know if you've got skin in the game or what but it appears you're taking this a little too personally. My opinion is the clip of Steve Blake stepping out of the way is symbolic of what is seen in all but the closing minutes of each NBA game except for maybe the playoffs - players not putting forth much effort on the defensive end. I don't see anything to get worked up about. After all, it's only my opinion.

        However, lest you think I'm just arbitrarily biased, or as you labeled it "closed minded," rather than having at least a modicum of evidence to support my claim (in addition to the clip provided above) let's see if you're argument holds water.

        In just about every major sport other than basketball we witness, on average, a drop in the average rate of scoring from the collegiate level to the professional level. In collegiate baseball it is not uncommon to see one or even both teams scoring in the double digits. Scores like 17 to 8, or 16 to 7, 10 to 9, 13 to 6, or 19 to 10 are witnessed nearly every weekend - in fact these scores were sampled from NCAA Division 1 games played just this past Sunday. Compare this to the MLB average of less than 5 runs per game where scores of 3 to 2 or 4 to 2 are the norm. You might say, it's gotta be the collegiate aluminum bats versus the wood bats used in the pros, right? There may be some evidence in support of this argument as shown in the following link:

        http://www.doubleazone.com/wps/wcm/c...on+of+new+bats

        Although even after the reduction in offense as a result of the NCAA changing the bats the average college team is still scoring more than one run per game in excess than the average MLB counterpart (>20% more scoring on a per team basis per game in college). I think a quick juxtaposition of the fielding percentage of college teams relative to the Big Leagues is quite revealing as to why this is so where we see 14 out of 30 MLB teams, almost half the league, have a fielding percentage in excess of the top college team's fielding percentage and the MLB league average is a miniscule .001 points lower than the absolute highest ranked team in college baseball (.982 vs .983).

        http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/team/_/stat/fielding

        http://www.ncaa.com/stats/baseball/d1/current/team/212

        Well perhaps that's just baseball? Nope, taking a look at the 2011 Div. 1 college football season we see a similar pattern of more prolific offensive output at the collegiate level versus the professional level.

        The following two links show this quite handidly. The highest scoring NFL team for the 2011 season were the Green Bay Packers which averaged 35 points per game. In 2011 there were 18 out of 120 division 1 college teams, or 15% of the league, that can claim to have averaged more than 35 points per game. If that is not sufficient enough evidence that the college football ranks see more scoring a quick export of the data to Excel and column averaging calculation will show that in 2011 the average team points scored in NCAA division 1 football was 28.1 points per game compared to the NFL team average of 22.2 points per game or roughly two extra touchdowns in the typical game (or 4 field goals depending how you look at it) which is more than 25% more scoring.

        http://espn.go.com/college-football/...lPointsPerGame

        http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/te...lPointsPerGame

        It's a little more difficult to draw comparisons in hockey due to the disjointed nature of collegiate hockey leagues and the relative lack of a central statistics repository for the 59 or so NCAA div 1 teams, but using the following it appears that similar to MLB and NFL the defense in the NHL is superior to that which we see in NCAA div 1 where the top 30 college teams in the 2010-11 season scored on average 3.354 goals per game compared to the 2.733 goal per game average per team in the NHL last season which equates to about an extra 1.25 goals per match at the collegiate level (~23% more goals scored per team per game in the NCAAs).

        http://web1.ncaa.org/stats/StatsSrv/rankings

        http://espn.go.com/nhl/statistics/te...1/seasontype/2

        With 344 NCAA division 1 mens basketball teams calculating the average points per team is a bit more challenging than for the other sports, but what the hey I'm a stats junkie and a truth hound so here are the numbers:

        Using the recently concluded 2011-12 regular season the average points per game per team in NCAA mens division 1 basketball was 67.904. Since the 2011-12 NBA season is still in play I calculated the average points per game per team for the most recent full regular season which was the 2010-11 regular season and found the average points per game per team to be 99.553. Note that this is per team and not per game.

        You might protest these numbers and point out that a regulation NBA game is 48 minutes long (four 12 minutes quarters) versus only 40 minutes for a regulation NCAA game (two 20 minute halves). That's a fine observation and if we gross up the NCAA team points per game average to a 48 minute equivalent we get 81.485 = [(67.904 / 40) * 48] which is a far cry from the 99+ points scored on average by an NBA team.

        http://espn.go.com/mens-college-bask...oring-per-game

        http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/te...ints/year/2011

        So I don't know, boss, it seems pretty clear to me that what started out at a comment in jest followed up with a humorous anecdotal web clip of one NBA player failing to even fake playing defense has now been empirically shown to have more than just a grain of truth to it don't ya think? I mean, the data is right there and it appears pretty consistent that in baseball, football, and hockey there is roughly a 20-25% differential in the rate of scoring between college and pros but we see the inverse in basketball. Now I know you've "assured" me they're playing defense in the NBA, but contra to MLB, NHL, and the NFL the data show that the defensive efforts in the NBA aren't matching up with the college level efforts and the NBA is at odds with other professional sports leagues where the increased talent level results in better defensive efficiency. But I suppose that's just my "closed minded" opinion. How stupid of me for enjoying 20 years worth of top-flight hustle and defensive-minded basketball from my Bearcats.
        "In the morning he would read the Bible with another coach. Then, in the afternoon, he would go out and cheat kids who had probably saved up money from mowing lawns to buy those raffle tickets. That's Jim Tressel." - former colleague to Jim Tressel as quoted in Sports Illustrated.

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        • #19
          Wait, people are arguing that there IS defense in the nba? Really?

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          • #20
            Ok, you made that way more difficult than it needs to be and frankly your logic is poor.

            You are practically saying that because a college basketball team scores less per minute than a professional basketball team there is less defense. That is such an insanely poor leap in logic. I'll list the huge gaps in your thought process:

            Professionals shoot better than college kids.
            Baseball is not basketball.
            Hockey is not basketball.
            Football is not basketball.
            NBA has much different rules than the NCAA. Its a man to man league and they allow much more movement off screens.

            Your stats are a complete waste of time. They don't really show a trend and completely gloss over the very simple fact that they are two entirely different games. Comparing the two with stats and not eyeballs is silly.
            "The secret is to have eight great players and four others who will cheer like crazy."

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Best Body View Post
              Actually, there is big, big money in the NBA for winning games, and winning games requires playing defense for more than 3 minutes per game. I think you like college basketball, which is good, but it stops you from watching the NBA games with an open mind. In contrast to what you said, there is actually incredible defense played in the league. If you watched any of the Bulls / Heat game yesterday, you would have seen an example. I think there are simply guys in the NBA that have unguardable moves combined with unbelievable quickness and strength, who can get off shots you simply can't stop without fouling. That doesn't mean no one is guarding them. There are also lots of guys with very limited offensive roles that get paid millions to be monsters on the defensive end of the floor. If they weren't playing defense hard all the time, those guys simply wouldn't be in the league getting paid.

              UC has historically had teams with extremely athletic guys, capable, of playing excellent defense. At times, it has lacked players with elite offensive skills. When recruiting, coaches most often have to choose players that can bring one or the other. It has been the philosophy of UC to focus on defense, for better or worse. That is why you don't see alot of short, slow kids that are great passers and 3 point shooters come here.

              Other teams, like for example Missouri, had some success this year in college basketball, despite not being able to play defense well, at all. But they could stroke the 3.

              Players that are great on both ends of the floor are often the very top prospects, and are difficult to land, and end up mostly at a few select schools.
              I agree with this post, NBA players are inhumanly good. You don't really realize how good they are until you go to a game and see the pregame shoot around, these guys make every shot when they are not guarded.

              There are only around 360 NBA players in the league, with only so many openings every year because of cuts and retirement. The NBA is easily the hardest pro league to make it into. The average college team has 0 future NBA players on it.

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